Translation errors and nuance

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I’ll try and make this one quick.

With the shift to more liberal translation in recent years in order to create more flowing dialogue and consistent character voices, there has been an onset of viewers misunderstanding certain choices that fansubbing groups choose to make. Those with a basic understanding of Japanese vocabulary and phrases might notice that what they hear doesn’t match exactly with what they read, and thus assume that the translator or editor made a mistake when, in fact, it was completely intentional. It’s easiest to understand with examples, and I didn’t prepare any beforehand, so let’s see what I can pull out of our recent releases and such.

Sakura Trick - 05 [premux]_001_3774

 

This one is just a control image. She says that the [shop’s] matcha cake is delicious, and we added flavor by using a common expression, “to die for”. Nobody should have any issues with this.

Sakura Trick - 05 [premux]_001_10915

At least one person complained about this one. Literally: “hold on, strategy meeting”. To be honest, I really wanted to include that phrase, but I believed that this conveyed enough information as-is. You’ll note that Japanese often omits subjects and even sometimes verbs when they’re obvious from context, but those usually need to be added back in for a translation.

Sakura Trick - 04 [premux]_001_18492

“I can’t feel my legs.” // “Want me off?”

This is an example of a very hard to translate conversation. Basically, the “joke” or misunderstanding or what-have-you comes from ambiguity in what Haruka says. She says “shibireru”, which from context would usually mean that her legs fell asleep due to lack of circulation and are feeling all tingly. She then specifies the… indirect object (?) as Yuu causing that feeling, but in a more “being so close to you has given me a feeling so complicated” way. In other words, it’s a good thing. Here’s Kaylith’s for comparison:

"My legs are falling asleep..." // "Should I get off?"

“My legs are falling asleep…” // “Should I get off?”

The original idea was “Only to me”, by the way.
Doki: “My legs are falling asleep…” // “Should I get off?” // “No.”

CR: “My legs are tingling…” // “Huh? Should I get off?” // “No, you’re making me tingle.”

LazyLily: “I’m getting numb…” // “Should I get off?” // “I meant my mind.”

And now for the complete opposite end of the spectrum.

It took me fucking forever to find this one minute conversation

It took me fucking forever to find this one minute conversation (Oregairu ep 4 15:40ish)

The metaphor is thus: “donut” for uke/catcher/takes-it-in-the-ass; “banana” for seme/pitcher/the-D; “Krispy Kreme glaze” for sasoi uke/receiver who appears innocent but is actually inviting others to fuck him (forgive my lack of delicacy on this one, it’s hard to describe). This was an extremely liberal and creative translation on FFF’s part, and it caused quite a stir when it was airing a few seasons ago. First of all, the Krispy Kreme brand is apparently not as well known outside of America, so a certain demographic was confused. Second, it was fairly clear that that’s not what she was exactly saying, so people jumped on it with their [mostly nonexistant] Japanese skillz and called foul play (translation errors) on them. But if you think about it for a second, you’ll quickly realize that dialogue like this doesn’t come out of nowhere. The subbers followed rhyme and reason, and were consistent in her characterization. I don’t know what CR/Commie/WhyNot had for those parts, but I’m guessing it was a lot more conservative and simple. But so long as the translator understood and made an effort to truly translate the meaning and character voice, it’s not a mistake. It all comes down to preference in the end.

So where does that leave us? My original point was about mistaking inaccuracy for nuance, and attempting to convince others of non-existant errors. Translation is both a science and an art, and as such proper and competent translations will never be done by a machine until we’ve achieved perfect AI. It’s up to each person involved (whether viewer or subber) to interpret what is going on, and to determine the true meaning behind the characters’ words and actions. In fact, even if you’re competent in the original language, you can sometimes understand a deeper level of the interactions going on by reading someone else’s interpretation of it… and that is the reason I still watch subs.

42 thoughts on “Translation errors and nuance”

  3. So, where do you draw the line? If this isn’t just an apologia, you probably have an equal amount of examples of nuances done wrong?

    Reply ↓

    • The point is that it’s up to both the people subbing and the people watching to decide how much is acceptable [for themselves] and where the line is. I developed a pretty high tolerance level for creativity, probably quite a bit higher than the average viewer, which is why I try to hold myself back when actually subbing. Each one of those examples could be either acceptable or not depending on the person.
      [DmonHiro] Yes! Pretty Cure 5 - 46 - Kawarino's Heartless Scheme! (720p) [C265223D].mkv_snapshot_05.46_[2014.02.08_10.01.43]
      This one, however, should be over the line for most people. The line before it is “Gotta catch ’em all!” for “ganbaru zo!”. One the one hand, they really do say “Catch” when they get a Pinky (the series MacGuffin). On the other, it’s an inappropriate reference to an unrelated series. Basically, while it’s more or less accurate to the Japanese, too many liberties were taken in editing and scriptwriting that ended up just making the whole thing awkward and unnecessary.

      Reply ↓

      • ‘Each after his own fashion’ is not really a point worth stating. IMHO. Maybe I’m just not a fan of relativist stances.

        Anyway, you shouldn’t cheapen your position. I do agree with most if not all of what you said; you’re just being a bit too imprecise or, well, relativist for your message to have an impact. That’s why I asked for other examples in my first comment.

        My one issue with more liberal editing – I detest the very much binary liberal/literal division, but whatever – is when the ones in charge just aren’t good enough for the job. You don’t have to be Alexander O. Smith or Joseph Reeder to make a more liberal approach work, but you better damn try to at least aim for their standards of quality. Just picking the right approach, or what you think is the right approach, is just not enough. (By the way, general “you” here and not “you, Akatsukin.”)

        And I kind of miss a certain degree of humility in fansubbing. People don’t really seem to be willing to take a step back and reflect and maybe admit that yup, they made bad calls. I understand it’s a rat race for recognition and we have going for us are our lines, so we better make people notice them; but it kind of makes it hard to really discuss editing policies with their pros and cons without ending up with shit-flinging and everybody being assigned to his own camp again. And it probably does a disservice to the viewer who ends up being distracted or thrown off rather than informed by the subtitles.

        Ah whatever.

        Reply ↓

        • I don’t want to drag this out, but what I was trying to avoid is a post where all I do is post examples and state my own opinion, “This is okay”, “This is shit”, “I wish I had been able to come up with that on my own, and I’m definitely stealing it for next time” and try to force others to agree. All I want is for people to think for themselves and not be blinded by senseless rage. I could preach all day about my thoughts on subs, but if a fool doesn’t open his ears or mind then I’d have more success convincing a brick wall.

          Reply ↓

      • Sorry, next time I’ll be sure to sub that exchange as “Let’s do our best!” / “Even so, we sure have done well in collecting them, right?”

        But in the spirit of fansubber humility mentioned by lanu, I will admit that yes, that was a deliberate rewrite. Though if I really wanted to go full troll with it, I would’ve done “We’re pretty much Pinkémon Masters at this point.” When subbing children’s anime as a 1- or 2-person group, there’s always the temptation (at least for me) to amuse oneself and hopefully a few viewers by spicing up the usual low-variety Japanese scriptwriting. And I do try to keep things “more or less accurate to the Japanese,” or at least somewhat based on the original dialogue. I prefer to think of it as liberalism in the style of a.f.k. (who also slipped a Pokémon reference into Lucky Star at one point) rather than the whole-cloth rewrites of gg/Commie/Coalguys, where “There’s no such thing as a chair I can’t sit in” becomes “Standing is for poor people” and “They’ve locked on to me” becomes “Fox, get this guy off me!”

        Reply ↓

  4. So, where do you draw the line? If this isn’t just an apologia, you probably have an equal amount of examples of nuances done wrong?

    Reply ↓

    • The point is that it’s up to both the people subbing and the people watching to decide how much is acceptable [for themselves] and where the line is. I developed a pretty high tolerance level for creativity, probably quite a bit higher than the average viewer, which is why I try to hold myself back when actually subbing. Each one of those examples could be either acceptable or not depending on the person.
      [DmonHiro] Yes! Pretty Cure 5 - 46 - Kawarino's Heartless Scheme! (720p) [C265223D].mkv_snapshot_05.46_[2014.02.08_10.01.43]
      This one, however, should be over the line for most people. The line before it is “Gotta catch ’em all!” for “ganbaru zo!”. One the one hand, they really do say “Catch” when they get a Pinky (the series MacGuffin). On the other, it’s an inappropriate reference to an unrelated series. Basically, while it’s more or less accurate to the Japanese, too many liberties were taken in editing and scriptwriting that ended up just making the whole thing awkward and unnecessary.

      Reply ↓

      • ‘Each after his own fashion’ is not really a point worth stating. IMHO. Maybe I’m just not a fan of relativist stances.

        Anyway, you shouldn’t cheapen your position. I do agree with most if not all of what you said; you’re just being a bit too imprecise or, well, relativist for your message to have an impact. That’s why I asked for other examples in my first comment.

        My one issue with more liberal editing – I detest the very much binary liberal/literal division, but whatever – is when the ones in charge just aren’t good enough for the job. You don’t have to be Alexander O. Smith or Joseph Reeder to make a more liberal approach work, but you better damn try to at least aim for their standards of quality. Just picking the right approach, or what you think is the right approach, is just not enough. (By the way, general “you” here and not “you, Akatsukin.”)

        And I kind of miss a certain degree of humility in fansubbing. People don’t really seem to be willing to take a step back and reflect and maybe admit that yup, they made bad calls. I understand it’s a rat race for recognition and we have going for us are our lines, so we better make people notice them; but it kind of makes it hard to really discuss editing policies with their pros and cons without ending up with shit-flinging and everybody being assigned to his own camp again. And it probably does a disservice to the viewer who ends up being distracted or thrown off rather than informed by the subtitles.

        Ah whatever.

        Reply ↓

        • I don’t want to drag this out, but what I was trying to avoid is a post where all I do is post examples and state my own opinion, “This is okay”, “This is shit”, “I wish I had been able to come up with that on my own, and I’m definitely stealing it for next time” and try to force others to agree. All I want is for people to think for themselves and not be blinded by senseless rage. I could preach all day about my thoughts on subs, but if a fool doesn’t open his ears or mind then I’d have more success convincing a brick wall.

          Reply ↓

      • Sorry, next time I’ll be sure to sub that exchange as “Let’s do our best!” / “Even so, we sure have done well in collecting them, right?”

        But in the spirit of fansubber humility mentioned by lanu, I will admit that yes, that was a deliberate rewrite. Though if I really wanted to go full troll with it, I would’ve done “We’re pretty much Pinkémon Masters at this point.” When subbing children’s anime as a 1- or 2-person group, there’s always the temptation (at least for me) to amuse oneself and hopefully a few viewers by spicing up the usual low-variety Japanese scriptwriting. And I do try to keep things “more or less accurate to the Japanese,” or at least somewhat based on the original dialogue. I prefer to think of it as liberalism in the style of a.f.k. (who also slipped a Pokémon reference into Lucky Star at one point) rather than the whole-cloth rewrites of gg/Commie/Coalguys, where “There’s no such thing as a chair I can’t sit in” becomes “Standing is for poor people” and “They’ve locked on to me” becomes “Fox, get this guy off me!”

        Reply ↓

  15. You are always going to face difficulties translating one language into another.
    Considering each language has it’s own way of expressing itself and phrases with multiple meanings.

    A general rule all of you probably use is to translate it into >english< as people are used to hearing/reading instead of a literal translation that a vocal group seems to be in favor of.
    Since they have alot more experience with the japanese language and can deduct the intent from it that people new to anime"S" can't.

    My japanese is too awful to actually agree or disagree with the complaints you're getting, but I feel you are doing a great job.

    Reply ↓

    • because we all miss Aikatsu! The new ep is out tomorrow and we still don’t have the old one! They are really late this time!!!
      UMI YORI HIROI ATASHI NO KOKORO MO, KOKORA GA GAMAN NO GENKAI YO!!!!

      Reply ↓

    • because we all miss Aikatsu! The new ep is out tomorrow and we still don’t have the old one! They are really late this time!!!
      UMI YORI HIROI ATASHI NO KOKORO MO, KOKORA GA GAMAN NO GENKAI YO!!!!

      Reply ↓

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